Jump to content


Photo

Dreamfall Chapters broke my heart


  • Please log in to reply
59 replies to this topic

#41 Hellegennes

Hellegennes

    Arcadia Native

  • Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 369 posts
  • LocationGreece, Thessaloniki

Posted 12 January 2017 - 23:43

I still have two major questions left unanswered:

 

Why in the name they introduced Saga to the story is beyond me. Why bother at all to present her as a spiritual continuation of April if she is a different character altogether? It doesn't add anything to the existing story, it just creates more questions, in a Lost-esque fashion. And don't give me that "mystery is important" crap, because mystery is important in life in general, creating new mysteries with no intention on resolving them is plainly frustrating and completely unnecessary. 

 

But that's not my question. My question is, what was Cortez' motivation in sending Brian through the Divide? In TLJ it is presented like it was just for the sake of adventuring, but in Dreamfall the plot thickens. However it was never explained and it was supposed to be a big part of the story. Whether the developers changed their minds about what the involvement of dragons would be in DFC or not, it changes nothing. Dreamfall suggests that the Dragons were tied to the story. The Dreamfall cycle was supposed to be self-contained, thus any future TLJ sequels shouldn't address major blanks in the story.

 

What's up with April's and Crow's rebirths? April says early on in the story that she was reborn. It is April's voice, not Saga's or whatever, so what's up with that? She could not mean that she was reborn as Saga. What about Crow? Crow's dead, that's certain. Then his dead form leaves with April. But then, Saga picks his dead body up and... what? Resurrects him? Isn't it the same Crow in the final scene with Lady Alvane? What gives? This whole thing makes no sense. If it's not a massive plothole created due to developers making changes to the story, then it's not presented correctly. In the way the events unfold, it simply makes no sense.


  • Vainamoinen, Indrid Cold, bongboy and 1 other like this

#42 Vainamoinen

Vainamoinen

    Harbinger of the Balance

  • Vestrum
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,850 posts

Posted 13 January 2017 - 09:35

Why in the name they introduced Saga to the story is beyond me. Why bother at all to present her as a spiritual continuation of April if she is a different character altogether? It doesn't add anything to the existing story, it just creates more questions, in a Lost-esque fashion. And don't give me that "mystery is important" crap, because mystery is important in life in general, creating new mysteries with no intention on resolving them is plainly frustrating and completely unnecessary.

 
You're right in that it didn't add anything to the existing – let's say: current – story (except maybe cushioning the Deus Ex Machina). However, reincarnation in itself can make for quite interesting stories. But those stories are only interesting if they're stories of rediscovery, and that kind of implies that the person you are now is different from the person you were back then. 
 
I believe Red Thread Games/Ragnar was hell bent on resolving (some of) those frustrating mysteries but, due to circumstances outside of their control, never will. I basically think that's what The Longest Journey Home was supposed to be about, a better understanding of the April Ryan character, a better understanding on the Saga character, how Saga has learnt of her previous incarnation, and how it helped her to find her destiny eventually (with a special focus on the reasons for the decision to unite the worlds).
 
THAT sounds like a story, doesn't it?  :)

 

But that's not my question.


Dammit.

 

My question is, what was Cortez' motivation in sending Brian through the Divide? In TLJ it is presented like it was just for the sake of adventuring, but in Dreamfall the plot thickens. However it was never explained and it was supposed to be a big part of the story. Whether the developers changed their minds about what the involvement of dragons would be in DFC or not, it changes nothing. Dreamfall suggests that the Dragons were tied to the story. The Dreamfall cycle was supposed to be self-contained, thus any future TLJ sequels shouldn't address major blanks in the story.

 
Could be plot holes, or maybe not. My impression was that Chang and Westhouse very successfully fooled both the Kin as well as Gordon "Blind Guardian" Halloway. In what way that could happen, I'm uncertain on. One theory that I often go back to is that the Storytime is quite out of the Guardian's and the Kins' reach, so by piercing and infiltrating Storytime they were able to work their evil magichinery™ without the Guardian noticing. But let's not forget that there may in fact not have been any dragons left in the worlds after Westhouse killed the White.
 
Though in my personal canon, Saga is the White Dragon. And a damn fine White Dragon she is.
 
 

What's up with April's and Crow's rebirths? April says early on in the story that she was reborn. It is April's voice, not Saga's or whatever, so what's up with that? She could not mean that she was reborn as Saga. What about Crow? Crow's dead, that's certain. Then his dead form leaves with April. But then, Saga picks his dead body up and... what? Resurrects him? Isn't it the same Crow in the final scene with Lady Alvane? What gives? This whole thing makes no sense. If it's not a massive plothole created due to developers making changes to the story, then it's not presented correctly. In the way the events unfold, it simply makes no sense.


I wouldn't overinterpret all that, so I'm lazy and I'm going for the easy solutions. Zoë narrated her past from the Storytime in Dreamfall, April's echo in the Storytime can do the same.

 

Regarding what Saga did with Crow: I think she fucked up. :P

 

I mean, Saga is a superhero. She can create Shifts that other people can pass, she can travel to other planets and parallel realities, she can travel back in time (oh yes sir!) and I think that by finding the right tune on her guitar she can ride the Songlines to fixture points in the entire history of the multiverse. She has dabbled in alchemy and who knows what else, and she has likely studied the exact circumstances of her own creation after April Ryan's untimely death. So Necromancy and induced Rebirth could be more or less at her fingertips. 

 

But all that immense power seems to come at a price, and that is servitude. At every step she seems to execute the strict will of an antropomorphised story with very little room for deviations. I thought of her as a slave to the whims of the story, so to speak. And then, after years of just executing those orders, she finds the lifeless body of Crow (whom she knows from her former life, a life she has investigated thoroughly according to the Lady Alvane sequence in DFC) at a time when she's very lonely and very vulnerable.

 

So it's time for a little rebellion.


  • Ringtail, MisterMetropolis, magic88889 and 1 other like this

Chairwoman and/or man of the Forum Exodus Rejection and Downtime Opposition Warlords Society (F.E.R.D.O.W.S.). Join now!


#43 Riaise

Riaise

    Vestrum Crier

  • Minstrum
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 650 posts
  • LocationEngland

Posted 13 January 2017 - 14:36

One theory that I often go back to is that the Storytime is quite out of the Guardian's and the Kins' reach, so by piercing and infiltrating Storytime they were able to work their evil magichinery™ without the Guardian noticing.

 

Alternatively, Gordon did notice, but has his own shifty agenda so did nothing. Possibly. Because as lovely as he's made the Guardian's Realm look, I still don't trust him. :P

 

 

But all that immense power seems to come at a price, and that is servitude. At every step she seems to execute the strict will of an antropomorphised story with very little room for deviations. I thought of her as a slave to the whims of the story, so to speak. And then, after years of just executing those orders, she finds the lifeless body of Crow (whom she knows from her former life, a life she has investigated thoroughly according to the Lady Alvane sequence in DFC) at a time when she's very lonely and very vulnerable.

 

So it's time for a little rebellion.

 

Did she find him, though, or did she specifically go down there and get him because "that's how the story goes"? What other reason did she have to be down at the bottom of the Well?


  • Vainamoinen and Ringtail like this

#44 Vainamoinen

Vainamoinen

    Harbinger of the Balance

  • Vestrum
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,850 posts

Posted 13 January 2017 - 15:04

Did she find him, though, or did she specifically go down there and get him because "that's how the story goes"? What other reason did she have to be down at the bottom of the Well?

 
As for some wild reason – that didn't make sense in the first place – the top interior was the entrance, the bottom – if it was that – could have been her exit just as well. :)

 

But the mode of Saga's arrival and departure seems to have been neither Shift nor Songline, so outside my hypothetical expertise. :P :P


  • Ringtail and Riaise like this

Chairwoman and/or man of the Forum Exodus Rejection and Downtime Opposition Warlords Society (F.E.R.D.O.W.S.). Join now!


#45 MisterMetropolis

MisterMetropolis

    Arcadia Native

  • Drachkin
  • PipPipPip
  • 383 posts

Posted 13 January 2017 - 19:51

Time has no meaning when you're dead. April could still insert herself in Kian and Zoe's dreams before she moved on as Saga.

 

I think Crow might actually be a phoenix. Westhouse stabbed him with the spear in Dreamfall and he "blacked out" and his next conscious memory is with Mother Utana, probably because Westhouse sent his body to her to study. We are also reminded again in Book Five that Crow doesn't know what his species is as he is so rare - I think this is a hint in the narrative. So in that case, Crow would experience more of a resurrection as opposed to a full-on reincarnation as a new person like April and Saga.


  • Ringtail, Riaise and LootHunter like this

"But even if we don't reach that lofty goal this time around, we hope to some day still be able to tell this story. April's story, all of it. All that remains of it. Because it needs to be told. And you all deserve to hear it. And we would love to share it with you." - RTG, March 1, 2013

 

"Even if we don't get to $2 million, we will still look into ways of making The Longest Journey Home a reality...some day. It's a story we all want to tell, and we won't let it die.- RTG, March 9, 2013


#46 LootHunter

LootHunter

    Fringe Café Regular

  • Member
  • PipPip
  • 80 posts
  • LocationRussia, Moscow

Posted 13 January 2017 - 20:56

My question is, what was Cortez' motivation in sending Brian through the Divide? In TLJ it is presented like it was just for the sake of adventuring, but in Dreamfall the plot thickens.

Yes. So what are you complaining about? That Brian's presence in Arcadia is never explained in TLJ, but in Dreamfall developers begun to explain that a bit?

 

it was supposed to be a big part of the story.

That's where I disagree. I mean Cortez sending Biran though the Divide is a part of The Story - the major story, that encompasses whole game series (TLJH included). But for Dreamfall Cycle it's just a plot device - Brian got into Storytime, Brian got the Undreaming, Brian contacted Chan and manipulated her into creating Dreamtime

 

I think Crow might actually be a phoenix. Westhouse stabbed him with the spear in Dreamfall and he "blacked out" and his next conscious memory is with Mother Utana, probably because Westhouse sent his body to her to study. We are also reminded again in Book Five that Crow doesn't know what his species is as he is so rare - I think this is a hint in the narrative. So in that case, Crow would experience more of a resurrection as opposed to a full-on reincarnation as a new person like April and Saga.

I'm not sure about phoenix thing - after all Crow was getting old with Saga and he didn't rejuvinate as phoenix probably whould. However, as I've played DFC second time I've noticed quite a few hints, that Crow is something more than just talking bird. His magic allows him to pass into undeground labyrinth and Abnaxus also tells that Crow is unique in his magical properties.

.



#47 Hellegennes

Hellegennes

    Arcadia Native

  • Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 369 posts
  • LocationGreece, Thessaloniki

Posted 13 January 2017 - 23:50

It was given too much focus in Dreamfall to just be a plot device. Why not go with the original interpretation of TLJ?



#48 Hellegennes

Hellegennes

    Arcadia Native

  • Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 369 posts
  • LocationGreece, Thessaloniki

Posted 14 January 2017 - 00:15

 
You're right in that it didn't add anything to the existing – let's say: current – story (except maybe cushioning the Deus Ex Machina). However, reincarnation in itself can make for quite interesting stories. But those stories are only interesting if they're stories of rediscovery, and that kind of implies that the person you are now is different from the person you were back then. 

 

Oh, don't get me wrong. Saga is an interesting character. The descriptions we were given of her journeys during the epilogue (which you can hear about if you click everything inside the house of all worlds) sound very intriguing. And I liked her story and her personality (I even liked the painting hunt). What I don't get was their decision to tie her to April in such a weak, watered-down way. It just seems like a connection for the sake of the connection. It's like as if they felt bad for killing off April and had to compensate with some kind of rebirth trope, even if in the end there's little connection between the two characters.

 

There is also a plothole that bothers me. Lady Alvane tells April that she is certain they will meet again, but frankly I don't see that happening without invoking time travel crazy shenanigans (of which I am not very fond) in a hypothetical TLJH story.


  • the red of the kin likes this

#49 Vainamoinen

Vainamoinen

    Harbinger of the Balance

  • Vestrum
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,850 posts

Posted 14 January 2017 - 00:22

There is also a plothole that bothers me. Lady Alvane tells April that she is certain they will meet again


April did meet Lady Alvane again, in a way. :)

Chairwoman and/or man of the Forum Exodus Rejection and Downtime Opposition Warlords Society (F.E.R.D.O.W.S.). Join now!


#50 Hellegennes

Hellegennes

    Arcadia Native

  • Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 369 posts
  • LocationGreece, Thessaloniki

Posted 14 January 2017 - 00:23

No, no, no, that's cheating!


  • Vainamoinen and Dmm like this

#51 Vainamoinen

Vainamoinen

    Harbinger of the Balance

  • Vestrum
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,850 posts

Posted 14 January 2017 - 00:47

Sounds like something Lady Alvane would do.
  • Dmm, Indrid Cold and Hellegennes like this

Chairwoman and/or man of the Forum Exodus Rejection and Downtime Opposition Warlords Society (F.E.R.D.O.W.S.). Join now!


#52 MisterMetropolis

MisterMetropolis

    Arcadia Native

  • Drachkin
  • PipPipPip
  • 383 posts

Posted 14 January 2017 - 04:56

After April met herself...she met herself again, in the same meeting, from the other mind's perspective.


"But even if we don't reach that lofty goal this time around, we hope to some day still be able to tell this story. April's story, all of it. All that remains of it. Because it needs to be told. And you all deserve to hear it. And we would love to share it with you." - RTG, March 1, 2013

 

"Even if we don't get to $2 million, we will still look into ways of making The Longest Journey Home a reality...some day. It's a story we all want to tell, and we won't let it die.- RTG, March 9, 2013


#53 Lee-m

Lee-m

    Vestrum Herald

  • Vestrum
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,655 posts
  • LocationYorkshire, England

Posted 14 January 2017 - 05:07

met herself ? Some times I think i'm playing a totally different game to everyone else lol

#54 the red of the kin

the red of the kin

    Vestrum Herald

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,043 posts
  • LocationTrieste (Italy)

Posted 14 January 2017 - 08:26

Why in the name they introduced Saga to the story is beyond me.


Well that's a strong statement ;-)

Why bother at all to present her as a spiritual continuation of April if she is a different character altogether?


I think the reason is to present to the typical western player a philisophical or religious concept that is foreign to him or her.
The transmigration of the soul is something people like me struggle with, so I see it as a good thing that this videogame takes a bit of time to insert this concept and attempt to explain it in a poetical fashion.
The point is that when one is reborn he/she should not have self-awareness of the process or his/her previous identity. That's why April and Saga are different... But TLJ gives Saga self-awareness: so she remains different in some aspects but retains others...like for example April's artistic skills.

It doesn't add anything to the existing story, it just creates more questions, in a Lost-esque fashion.


I personally think that more screentime and exploration of Saga's inner turmoil while growing up and realizing who she "is/was/will be" would have been awesome...but...really...minor complaint here.

And don't give me that "mystery is important" crap, because mystery is important in life in general, creating new mysteries with no intention on resolving them is plainly frustrating and completely unnecessary.


It depends. the point is a Book, Movie or Videogame must give a sense of accomplishment at its end. And that sense of accomplishment is achieved by resolving all main issues. Surely some minor details can remain unsolved. Surely some side quests can be suspended for the "next chapter".
But you have a point here. A major part of the story is left blurry. There is closure (it's evident!) but not a real accomplishment feeling because many aspects of the ending are left unspoken or unexplained (wouldn't call the plot holes).

But that's not my question.


Yet you wrote it down and it had question marks ;-D

My question is, what was Cortez' motivation in sending Brian through the Divide? In TLJ it is presented like it was just for the sake of adventuring, but in Dreamfall the plot thickens. However it was never explained and it was supposed to be a big part of the story. Whether the developers changed their minds about what the involvement of dragons would be in DFC or not, it changes nothing. Dreamfall suggests that the Dragons were tied to the story. The Dreamfall cycle was supposed to be self-contained, thus any future TLJ sequels shouldn't address major blanks in the story.


Yeah this is another of those "minor" aspects that were left unexplained. Of course people on forums have come up with many great theories but there is no explanation and ...yeah: it isn't minor at all. Not to me, since Cortez is one of my favorite characters in TLJ.
I shall give you my own answer but it's never going to be a good one because the games should have answered it in the first place :)
I think Cortez acted in the same way Saga acted. He knew he had to be in a certain place at a certain time and "help" his friend Brian by sending him to the Monks. He knew the monks were the only ones capable of enacting the transmigration of the soul to Storytime and get Brian there. But that is as far as he knew. As Saga, he was not in control, but only obeying to fate: following the songline.
Other than that...."mystery is importand, Señorita"

What's up with April's and Crow's rebirths? April says early on in the story that she was reborn. It is April's voice, not Saga's or whatever, so what's up with that? She could not mean that she was reborn as Saga.


Yeah that's a bit messed up. I guess in the end she meant she was reborn as Saga, but she was speaking from Storytime (or memory lane...or whatever that place Zoe saw her in was really).
It's sorta like in Christian religion...like the trinity. there is the Spirit (April in Story time) the Son (Saga) and the Father (in this case the "mother", the white Dragon)...mind you: sort of! hehehe

What about Crow? Crow's dead, that's certain. Then his dead form leaves with April. But then, Saga picks his dead body up and... what? Resurrects him? Isn't it the same Crow in the final scene with Lady Alvane? What gives? This whole thing makes no sense. If it's not a massive plothole created due to developers making changes to the story, then it's not presented correctly. In the way the events unfold, it simply makes no sense.


Yeah Crow's death and rebirth did not make any sense to me...it felt as if it was there for drama only.

Edited by the red of the kin, 14 January 2017 - 08:32.

  • bongboy and Hellegennes like this

IF YOU'RE A GHOST.......JUST LEAVE ME BE!


#55 bongboy

bongboy

    Vestrum Herald

  • Vestrum
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,619 posts
  • LocationRenton, WA, USA

Posted 14 January 2017 - 08:47

Yeah Crow's death and rebirth did not make any sense to me...it felt as if it was there for drama only.

It seems to me that the only reason Crow died is so he can accompany April on The Longest Journey Home, even though it will never happen... at least not for a long, long time.


  • the red of the kin likes this

#56 magic88889

magic88889

    Vestrum Crier

  • Vestrum
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 632 posts

Posted 14 January 2017 - 10:31

Crow died to give us that soul-crushing moment of utter shock when it happened.  He lived (somehow) because he shows up at the end of TLJ.

Plus, given that the whole game is about renewing yourself, or "rebirth" as it's called, it's pretty much on theme.

 

As for Cortez.  I felt that he sent Brian to Arcadia for a purpose.  Remember that the reunification is supposed to happen.  It's prophesied.  Cortez only stopped McAllen because he felt it wasn't time yet.  So send Brian to Arcadia, get him mixed up with the Undreaming to set things in motion.  I think he got sidetracked with interference by Wati and Helena, but I think it was to usher in the beginning of the reunification.



#57 Vainamoinen

Vainamoinen

    Harbinger of the Balance

  • Vestrum
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,850 posts

Posted 14 January 2017 - 11:00

met herself ? Some times I think i'm playing a totally different game to everyone else lol


Welcome to everyone else's game then. :)


It seems to me that the only reason Crow died is so he can accompany April on The Longest Journey Home


As soon as I saw that baby in Book One, I was absolutely certain that half of TLJH would be her story.
  • Lee-m and the red of the kin like this

Chairwoman and/or man of the Forum Exodus Rejection and Downtime Opposition Warlords Society (F.E.R.D.O.W.S.). Join now!


#58 Hellegennes

Hellegennes

    Arcadia Native

  • Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 369 posts
  • LocationGreece, Thessaloniki

Posted 14 January 2017 - 14:34

Crow's split in two makes no sense to me. And his Disney death felt cheap. I mean, seeing him dying was a bit of a shock, but knowing he would be there for the "Lady Alvane meets April" scene removed any tension from the scene. It's shocking if you 've never played TLJ only. On the other hand, for those who haven't played TLJ, it's confusing as hell. He dies but then becomes a companion to Saga and his spirit moves on with April. What?

 

I get that there's a "he exists in the multiverse in different senses" view presented in the game but it's a) not explained at all and B) kinda cheap or shall I say "convenient plot contrivance".


  • bongboy likes this

#59 the red of the kin

the red of the kin

    Vestrum Herald

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,043 posts
  • LocationTrieste (Italy)

Posted 15 January 2017 - 09:50

(...) or shall I say "convenient plot contrivance".


I don't go that far. I think it was a choice to layout the plot of the next game, but...since so far there's not going to be anext game. it makes this one confusing.

I shall reiterate my...difficulties with the concept of transmigration/rebirth and so forth. I prefer to work with sci-fi stuff like multiple universes and timelines. I am more of a Starkian guy ;-)

 

I'll settle for saying Crow dying was certainly a nice dramatic moment. Crow being reborn and accompanying Saga was a downer (I AM GRUT!).

 

I'll explain why I feel that way and to do it I'm going to use the "we, the public", very pretentiously XD

When we get to know a story (whatever the media is) we feel for the protagonists and we want them to to succeed. When they are in peril we struggle with them because we know their life is in danger.
But if your heroes are supernatural beings that never die, we stop caring. We may put on a smile but we don't really look forward for their new adventures because they become distant from our conception of life.

It truly was pretentious of me to use the "we", but I still think a lot of people feel as I do. 
When I see Crow next to Saga I don't cry out of joy; I'm like "Oh...ok...he's sort of like April...but he actually gets to live again...so...great...I guess...".

 

But in the end I get it: it's because of the rebirth. It doesn't make sense in of itself but it makes sense in the context of the story. 


  • Vainamoinen likes this

IF YOU'RE A GHOST.......JUST LEAVE ME BE!


#60 Vainamoinen

Vainamoinen

    Harbinger of the Balance

  • Vestrum
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,850 posts

Posted 15 January 2017 - 11:29

Agreed on Crow's death: First it felt like a cheap Whedon "gotta show the stakes" death at the hands of a poorly reintroduced villain, then it felt like nothing had been at stake all along. First the death was nothing the story had worked towards, second the tears that people shed were invalidated later.

 

Yeah. Not a big fan of that part. Still a big fan of the last scene and Crow's reappearance though; but it would have sufficed to put Crow's survival in question after the big villain reveal scene instead of hearing his neck crack like Schwarzenegger called and wanted his signature move back.

 

I never counted the Storytime reappearance into the whole ordeal though. April and Crow were fleeting echos in the Storytime, not quite themselves any longer. They could be heading towards afterlife just as well as as nothingness. It doesn't really make a difference. :mellow:


  • Hellegennes likes this

Chairwoman and/or man of the Forum Exodus Rejection and Downtime Opposition Warlords Society (F.E.R.D.O.W.S.). Join now!





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users