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Killing the Rat in the Air Pipe


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#1 VeganCaramel

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Posted 17 February 2017 - 23:49

It's quite upsetting that we're forced to violently kill an innocent, defenseless rat by stuffing it into a pressurized air pipe.

I don't mind something like this being included in the game as an option, but being forced to do it makes absolutely no sense in this game, or this series.

It totally mucks up the role-playing for those who've decided to take the ethical/kind path with Kian.

Throughout the whole game up to this point (and beyond it) we're given choices when it comes to doing something violent or cruel then, for this one part (a part that involves some particularly brutal cruelty no less) we're suddenly given no choice, even when it would've been quite easy to produce a choice.
What gives?

It genuinely feels like a development mistake (eg, accidental omission) that hasn't been patched yet, or can't be patched for some technical reason.

Are there any devs here that might be able to comment on whether or not the omission of a choice was intentional, and whether or not it can/will be patched?

 

 

Note: Disregard my username. It is, believe it or not, just a coincidence. My concern is related to immersion/role-playing and a love for this series, not veganism. And most of the people I've spoke to who are upset by this choice omission are not vegan.



#2 Lee-m

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Posted 18 February 2017 - 00:05

I agree. You should have had a choice to stuff a cat in the tube instead as a cruel option. I think it was indeed a development mistake, and the option should be in the final edition.

#3 VeganCaramel

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Posted 18 February 2017 - 00:15

I agree. You should have had a choice to stuff a cat in the tube instead as a cruel option. I think it was indeed a development mistake, and the option should be in the final edition.

That's not in agreement with what I said. Did you misread or are you just trolling?



#4 Lee-m

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Posted 18 February 2017 - 00:40

Did you misread or are you just trolling?

Yes.
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#5 Tina

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Posted 18 February 2017 - 12:05

There is at least an option to sedate / make the rat unconscious before it gets killed. By using the same stuff as you did to make that guy in the pub fall asleep. So that's a more humane way, I guess.

 

But it's true, there is no option where the rat doesn't get killed. I seem to recall Martin having said something about it before, back when that book came out, and other people also felt awful for having to kill the rat.


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#6 khh

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Posted 18 February 2017 - 12:50

It's quite upsetting that we're forced to violently kill an innocent, defenseless rat by stuffing it into a pressurized air pipe.

I don't mind something like this being included in the game as an option, but being forced to do it makes absolutely no sense in this game, or this series.

It totally mucks up the role-playing for those who've decided to take the ethical/kind path with Kian.

I think this goes back to the core thing that this isn't really a role playing game. You're given certain options for what the characters are going to do and say, but at the end of the day all the options presented to the player has to be in line with the core idea of the character. They all have to be something that the character might do. The character isn't an extension of the player. And Kian is a soldier. He's not a bad man, but he's not exactly an animal rights activist either. So when he gets the information that he can use a rodent to achieve his goals, he doesn't stop to ponder the ethical dilemmas.

Besides, it's a rat. They would have been considered to be nothing but a pest in a society like this.

 

(Obligatory disclamer: Tina and I are just voluenteer mods at the forums, we don't work for RTG)


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#7 VeganCaramel

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Posted 18 February 2017 - 16:47

I think this goes back to the core thing that this isn't really a role playing game. You're given certain options for what the characters are going to do and say, but at the end of the day all the options presented to the player has to be in line with the core idea of the character. They all have to be something that the character might do. The character isn't an extension of the player. And Kian is a soldier. He's not a bad man, but he's not exactly an animal rights activist either. So when he gets the information that he can use a rodent to achieve his goals, he doesn't stop to ponder the ethical dilemmas.

I'm not saying the Kian character is incapable of killing a rat, or even incapable of taking it lightly.
Through choice the player can have Kian's character do all sorts of brutal things if that's the path the player feels like taking.
Throughout the game, Kian's core character is revealed through the presentation of choices. We can be shown that he's capable of brutally killing a rat when the choice is presented to us, just as we get to see that he's capable of torturing a man or mercilessly disregarding someone's feelings in a conversation. We don't actually have to kill a rat, torture a man or crush someone's feelings to see that the core character is capable of these things.
To reiterate what I said in my initial post, it feels completely alien to this game, and this series, to not give the player a choice in the rat killing. So alien, in fact, that my first guess is that the omission of a choice wasn't intentional but rather a bug or oversight that was never corrected (and perhaps never will be corrected).


 



#8 ChrisR

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Posted 18 February 2017 - 21:21

Killing rat was as bad as setting person on fire. I wish I wasn't forced to do these 2 actions.
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#9 magic88889

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Posted 18 February 2017 - 21:37

While terrible, it's hardly the worst thing done to an animal in an adventure game.  I mean, right at the beginning of Sam&Max, you basically turn a cat inside out to get your mission details.  And what about microwaving the hamster in Day of the Tentacle?  Sure, they don't die, but yikes!



#10 kla622

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Posted 18 February 2017 - 23:55

Personally, I found that scene to be hillarious, true adventure game nonsense, in a good way. No, I do not condone this treatment of animals, but not everything in a game - even with such obvious real-world parallels as DFC - has to coincide with real world values. Yes, the player can influence Kian's behavior to some extent - torture can be a moral question even in a medieval-ish world, so that is a relevant decision to make. But the choices still have to make sense in that world's framework, and moralizing about killing a rat is in line neither with the setting of DFC nor Kian's character.

 

Besides, although it did not involve killing animals, but even the original TLJ made you go through some, khm, questionable behavior at times. (Some of April's exploits would provide a wealth of material for Roper Klacks' Fingerlings show.) It's just part of the genre.


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#11 LootHunter

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Posted 19 February 2017 - 20:02

Throughout the game, Kian's core character is revealed through the presentation of choices. We can be shown that he's capable of brutally killing a rat when the choice is presented to us, just as we get to see that he's capable of torturing a man or mercilessly disregarding someone's feelings in a conversation. We don't actually have to kill a rat, torture a man or crush someone's feelings to see that the core character is capable of these things.

But the absence of choice is also reveales character. In this particular case Kian, who is hardened soldier just doesn't consider a rat or probably any small animal as a creature worth spearing life. So it's quite reasonable for him not to think about rat.

Besides, although it did not involve killing animals, but even the original TLJ

You've forgotten snapjaw that April kills to prove herself to merum.


Edited by LootHunter, 19 February 2017 - 20:09.


#12 Veen Friend

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Posted 19 February 2017 - 20:54

..

It totally mucks up the role-playing for those who've decided to take the ethical/kind path with Kian.

Throughout the whole game up to this point (and beyond it) we're given choices when it comes to doing something violent or cruel then, for this one part (a part that involves some particularly brutal cruelty no less) we're suddenly given no choice, even when it would've been quite easy to produce a choice.
What gives?

It genuinely feels like a development mistake (eg, accidental omission) that hasn't been patched yet, or can't be patched for some technical reason.

Are there any devs here that might be able to comment on whether or not the omission of a choice was intentional, and whether or not it can/will be patched?

 

I think Kian's personality has degraded at a point. It would have been lovely to have had more control on Kian's personality through the actual choices in the game. But with the many choices in the game, some limitations must have been forced. I would also have preferred a more non-violent type of Kian, and I think it was all the persons sounding him (not many sympathetic) that caused the story to follow that part. I would have preferred a lot more friendship and cooperation between Zoé and Kian at an earlier point in the story. I missed an uplifting meeting when Zoé saw Kian the first time again. The story builders also have their choice to pick, and thankfully (so that the story can be finished and completed). Thanks for the positive input (as I see it). :) I agree with you. Look forward to the final edition, and hopefully other new details will uplift us all.



#13 Ringtail

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Posted 20 February 2017 - 01:14

Just to toss one more thing into the mix - if you listen to the Azadi who are guarding the building where Ferdows is, they talk about a previous time that a rat got into the pipes and disrupted the Engine.  So, if Kian reproduces that, it serves as a distraction that isn't as immediately suspicious as, say, tossing some screws or a wrench into a pipe.  

 

I don't know if you find that in-game explanation compelling; I agree that it was a little gruesome.  Same with setting Hilleriss on fire.


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#14 the red of the kin

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Posted 22 February 2017 - 08:21

Already been talked about previously but why not: let's talk about it again.
 

It feels out of context in many ways. although when I was a kid I was "used" to my gramma killing bunnies or chickens so we'd have them for dinner (that was just part of life in a farm, now we go buy groceries), this "puzzle" feels much worse than that. The premeditation of this puzzle and the lack of moral dilemma when faced with the inevitable solution make the puzzle really unsettling. Kian should have at least some moral debate...or tried to find other solutions (Bip could have helped too).

also..the "funny and random puzzles of adventure games" factor...doesn't really apply here. TLJ had some of these (go rubber ducky go!), but TLJ didn't take itself so seriously...or it was well balanced so you'd have some serious concepts but there were lots of funny moments. Dreamfall chapters is full of very serious moments and filled with polarizing choices. The overall mood of the game calls for yet another moral dilemma, not a funny random puzzle.


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#15 Hellegennes

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Posted 25 February 2017 - 23:59

It's a rat. In a game. And it's supposed to be funny. I personally don't see why is this so important. Isn't it the same game where you visit a concentration camp? It's not out of character for Kian and it may seem a bit cruel, but remember how important your mission is.



#16 Ringtail

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Posted 26 February 2017 - 01:40

It's a rat. In a game. And it's supposed to be funny. I personally don't see why is this so important. Isn't it the same game where you visit a concentration camp? It's not out of character for Kian and it may seem a bit cruel, but remember how important your mission is.

 

 

True - that rat died so that worlds might live.  Among his people, this rat is known as a Squeaky Wave, and the ripples of his passing are felt to this day. ;)


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#17 Riaise

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Posted 26 February 2017 - 14:30

It's a rat. In a game. And it's supposed to be funny. I personally don't see why is this so important. Isn't it the same game where you visit a concentration camp? It's not out of character for Kian and it may seem a bit cruel, but remember how important your mission is.

 

People can't help their feelings, though. I can't help feeling uncomfortable about how an innocent creature is crushed to death through no fault of it's own, whether it's only a rat in a game or not. Maybe that makes me weak, but I can't help the way that I am. I just think that it would be nice if this was acknowledged and an alternative solution to the puzzle could be added.

 

There are other sections of the game which make me uncomfortable, the Ge'en sections for one, but I understand that those are there because they are part of the overall story and are supposed to make you feel that way. The rat part seems so unnecessary.



#18 Hellegennes

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Posted 26 February 2017 - 22:46

It's black humour. Nothing more. I understand that black humour is not everyone's cup of tea, but that generally applies to the tropes of the LJ universe.

 

For those that feel it's so important and don't like black humour* there's the alternative of putting the rodent to sleep first.

 

 

* and this is hardly the only instance in which black humour is present in the series.



#19 LootHunter

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Posted 27 February 2017 - 17:18

People can't help their feelings, though. I can't help feeling uncomfortable about how an innocent creature is crushed to death through no fault of it's own, whether it's only a rat in a game or not. Maybe that makes me weak, but I can't help the way that I am. I just think that it would be nice if this was acknowledged and an alternative solution to the puzzle could be added.

 

There are other sections of the game which make me uncomfortable, the Ge'en sections for one, but I understand that those are there because they are part of the overall story and are supposed to make you feel that way. The rat part seems so unnecessary.

So what? I also feel uncomfortable about certain moments of the game, that devs don't suppose to be uncomfortable. But I was nearly banned just for voicing my opinion.



#20 the red of the kin

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Posted 28 February 2017 - 09:33

It's black humour. Nothing more. I understand that black humour is not everyone's cup of tea, but that generally applies to the tropes of the LJ universe.

 

For those that feel it's so important and don't like black humour* there's the alternative of putting the rodent to sleep first.

 

 

* and this is hardly the only instance in which black humour is present in the series.

 

I don't get the humor part, though...I'd laught if by dieing the rat triggered some Pitagora switch by wich inside people's kitchens there would now be boiled rat legs for dinner (that was off the top of my head in 10 seconds: bear with me please).
In our case all we get is a camera following some pipes and finally ending on the machine where you see some blood coming down...I don't know: I didn't get the joke.
It was funnier getting the rat to sleep, though...

and about the mission...it's the usual "the end justifies the means", as we're all taught since were babies. Fine. But I don't subscribe to this point of view (little Sting quote there). I just think "what if I was that rat? Would I gladly go to my death for the cause? Without any sort of honor?"

in the end it is just a puzzle in a game, so I'm not mad at all...but I do believe in what I've said :)


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